Tasks of the auditors

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Christian
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Tasks of the auditors

Post by Christian »

This was a discussion in the GC:
Tasks of the auditors

Post by Christian » 11 Apr 2019, 12:32
If you remember we had some interesting discussions about the tasks of the auditors. Some, among others also the dicastery, had the opinion, that the auditors have to check only financial issues. Here the remark of the dicastery:

Arts. 7.3.0.9., and 7.8.: The tasks of the internal auditors must be limited to verification on financial matters. All relevant articles should be modified to take account of this.

Now I looked at a description of the tasks of an auditor on the Internet and found at the first entries following: https://job-descriptions.careerplanner.com/Auditors.cfm
The interesting points are these points:

1) Collect and analyze data to detect deficient controls, duplicated effort, extravagance, fraud, or non-compliance with laws, regulations, and management policies.
12) Examine whether the organization's objectives are reflected in its management activities and whether employees (remark: in our case the members) understand the objectives.

Also on this page you will find interesting lines at the point "Auditor Responsibilities".

So, in my opinion, we should get in contact with Dr. Milligan and tell him about our image of the auditors and the reason on what this image is based on.
What are you thinking?
Re: Tasks of the auditors

Post by Ken Drake » 02 May 2019, 01:21
The tasks you mention ARE what we want the auditors to do. I don't know of a better word than "auditor", so maybe we should explain this to Dr. Milligan.
Re: Tasks of the auditors

Post by Christian » 02 May 2019, 06:46
I have written this to Dr. Milligan already and I'm waiting on his response now. I'm looking forward to his answer.
Re: Tasks of the auditors

Post by Christian » 21 May 2019, 11:32
Here is my email conversation with Dr. Milligan now:

Dear Dr. Milligan,

first I have to excuse myself that I have not contacted you about our ongoing process. We had a lot of work with the reorganizing. We have installed 6 different workgroups on the international level for several tasks and to bring these groups into gear is not an easy thing (depending on mentality, culture and the biggest challenge: the common language). One of these workgroups works on the statutes and it needed and it still need some time to bring the members on one level. But we are on a good way and we want to bring serious and good overworked version back to you.

Beside others, we would like to clarify some points before we send the text back to you as a whole. That is the main reason why I would like to have your appreciated advice today, please.

In your response we found following point:

Arts. 7.3.0.9., and 7.8.: The tasks of the internal auditors must be limited to verification on financial matters. All relevant articles should be modified to take account of this.

We had a very intensive discussion on this point because we found out that there could be different points of view about the tasks of the internal auditors depending on which part of the world you are coming from. So we tried to get more information about the tasks of internal auditors as described at several references:

On Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_audit), for instance, is to read:

„The scope of internal auditing within an organization is broad and may involve topics such as an organization's governance, risk management and management controls over: efficiency/effectiveness of operations (including safeguarding of assets), the reliability of financial and management reporting, and compliance with laws and regulations.“

Here we would like to draw your attention especially to the last part of the text, where the responsibility for compliance with laws and regulations is mentioned - something that was content of our last text.

The German edition of Wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne_Revision) seems to be interesting here too, where it is to be read under the tasks of the internal auditors that they have to pay attention to the fact that the processes run properly and in accordance with the rules.

In addition we looked at a description of the tasks of an auditor on the Internet and found already at the first entries following: https://job-descriptions.careerplanner.com/Auditors.cfm

The interesting points are these points:

· 1) Collect and analyze data to detect deficient controls, duplicated effort, extravagance, fraud, or non-compliance with laws, regulations, and management policies.

· 12) Examine whether the organization's objectives are reflected in its management activities and whether employees (remark: in our case the members) understand the objectives.

Also on this page you will find interesting lines at the point "Auditor Responsibilities".

In conclusion, we can say that a limitation of the tasks of the internal auditors to verification on financial matters seems to be wrongfully according to the lines and statements above. Our intention or what we had in mind that the internal auditors can also give support to the General committee or to the unit executive teams and give alert in good time if someone acts not according to the statutes.

We hope we have not annoyed you with our lines because we did not just change the text to your specifications. But it is very important to us that the text is also supported by all of us. Therefore, it may be that one or two more points will follow this request in addition.

Yours Sincerely,
Christian Patzl

President of the ICDS

and I got the following answer:

Dear Christian,



The key point for the Dicastery is that the governing organs of the association are the General Assembly and the General Committee, with the GC answerable to the GA, and the GA electing the GC. This is a relationship of shared responsibility and of trust.

The powers given to the internal auditors in your draft statutes effectively make of these people a branch of government, controlling the activity of the GC. This is what is not acceptable to the Dicastery. The auditors are elected by the GA, sit in on GC meetings, report back to the units independently of the GC, scrutinize all documents and decisions of the GC every two years and can push for an external audit in addition to the one which is already required every six years.

This all seems excessive, especially given the rather limited size of the association, for a GC which is already bound to operate in consultation and consensus with the units (7.3.0.8), which cannot engage in even medium sized financial transactions without the prior agreement of the units (7.3.0.12), and which is externally audited prior to each meeting of the GA.

Also, it is quite within the capacities of an organization to bring onboard experts in management to review its practices from time to time without this having to become part of its statutory framework.



I hope this helps.

PHILIP MILLIGAN
Re: Tasks of the auditors

Post by Christian » 21 May 2019, 11:35
And these are the replies from you on this email:

SABIN: Chris, very good your consultation with dicastery on an "unclear topic". Congrats for moving forward the Vatican process wheel.
Dr Milligan took 15 days to answer but is very aware of our case and manage very well our statutes.

Well I think is a very practical and very well argued answer and explanation. After this I think, there is no doubt of what must be In the statutes and what in ROP.
The (little) size of the ICDS would have excessive audit control, and ICDS has their stated (enough) expenses control. For size, compare for example ICDS with CLC Lays who visited us in 2017 who has more than 25.000 members.

Then let's see what other topic is "a stop or unclear issue" for the new version

OLGA: Christian
Completely agree
the term Auditor has evolved to the rhythm of modernization and change. There are Auditors in different areas and not only the financial one. In our case, they could be additional quality and quality auditors.

ANNE: Good morning Christian.
I must admit that when I was at the GA in Belgium, I was a little surprised by the breadth of the role termed “Auditors”.
I think it would be a good idea if we looked at this label of a role and break it up into responsibilities, for example. One role would be financial responsibility, a second one monitoring procedure and processes, whilst a third could cover how we conduct meetings etc.This could help to clear the understanding of what an auditor does within the ICDS.
Hope this does not confuse
Re: Tasks of the auditors

Post by Ken Drake » 26 May 2019, 22:07
So, does someone have a suggest "re-wording" for 7.3.0.9 and 7.8? To be honest, I am still not sure what Dr. Milligan wants them to say.
Re: Tasks of the auditors

Post by SABINSABIN » 09 Jun 2019, 16:55
I think it´s clear to leave statutes in a simple way and reinforce whatever was "left out" in the ROP

Statutes will define then auditor job just to verify finances. ROP enlarges the duties to the other posted objetives

Conclusion: We will write the statutes according to the requirements of the dicastery. But we will define "further tasks" of the auditor's in the ROP's (operating guidelines) to make the management and work in the iCDS more simple.
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